Sea Breeze

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Posts by Sea Breeze

• 
  162

  A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

  by Fisherman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

  and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

  in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

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  Sea Breeze

  belief in a personal God (including YHWH and Christ), is hindering human progress and hindering human flourishing.

  I guess this explains your total lack of interest in even attempting to defend your new philosophy when questioned like I did in my last post:

  Scientific Naturalism assumes that we are in a closed system. Since there is no way of testing this, it torpedoes its own foundation before it even gets started doesn't it?

  If it is closed, the where did the information come from that is inherent in light, matter, DNA, etc come from ?

  But, this isn't really about promoting or defending scientific naturalism is it? It is really about you being troubled that Christians don't vote like you do, right?

  So why don't you just stop beating around the bush and start a topic on a political issue that you think you can defend?

  But several months ago the creator and moderator of this site placed a block on my account from me creating new topic threads on this site. As a result, on this site I can only post in already existing topic threads and there are few new topic threads on this site promoting naturalism.

  Were you told this? Or, is this something you assumed? Maybe you don't know how to do it. You won't be able to post until you select a subject area. Have you tried this?
  
  
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  52

  Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  being born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.

  jehovah created humans.

  jehovah created humans as free moral agents.

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  Sea Breeze

  "Free Will cannot exist as every outcome is completely determined by the given set of conditions"

  Assumptive, not scientific.
• 
  162

  A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

  by Fisherman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

  and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

  in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  I agree VH7. I will gladly remove the below post if DJW would start a new thread on Scientific Naturalism. If this is his yearning to get other adherents like he says... he shouldn't be afraid of honest discussion.

  Anyway, For most people, naturalism assumes materialism. Note what Stanford Encyclopedia says:

  Naturalism

  First published Thu Feb 22, 2007; substantive revision Tue Mar 31, 2020

  The term “naturalism” has no very precise meaning in contemporary philosophy. Its current usage derives from debates in America in the first half of the last century. The self-proclaimed “naturalists” from that period included John Dewey, Ernest Nagel, Sidney Hook and Roy Wood Sellars. These philosophers aimed to ally philosophy more closely with science. They urged that reality is exhausted by nature, containing nothing “supernatural”, and that the scientific method should be used to investigate all areas of reality, including the “human spirit” (Krikorian 1944, Kim 2003).

  So understood, “naturalism” is not a particularly informative term as applied to contemporary philosophers.

  As far as most people are concerned, I believe that the three major components to naturalism are 1) scientism — the belief that scientific knowledge is either the only form of knowledge or a vastly superior form of knowledge; 2) the belief that the atomic theory of matter and the theory of evolution explain all events; and 3) the belief that non-physical things don’t exist and that the world isn’t here for any purpose.

  Scientific Naturalism assumes that we are in a closed system. Since there is no way of testing this, it torpedoes its own foundation before it even gets started doesn't it?
  
  If it is closed, the where did the information come from that is inherent in light, matter, DNA, etc come from ?

  Scientific Naturalism is a dead end.
  
  
• 
  162

  A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

  by Fisherman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

  and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

  in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  I yearn for the vast majority of human society, including the vast majority of humans of western civilization, including the vastly majority of humans of the USA, to embrace scientific naturalism.

  DJW, are you aware that neither you nor any other atheist can argue against the reality of non-material things without using non-material things?

  It's like someone arguing that there's no such thing as oxygen, while breathing the whole time. It's almost like arguing that there's no such thing as arguing! When a materialist argues that only the material realm is real, that only material things exist, he cannot do that without using ideas, which Einstein pointed out are not physical.

  Like numbers, ideas themselves are not physical, yet are very real. They're not made of matter and they're not made of energy. Regardless of how much we use them or how often, they never run out and they never wear out. Numbers are without limit and do not have temperature, density, color, mass, volume, shape, a melting point, hardness, odor, length, etc. They lack the properties of matter and energy, and even of space and time.

  Here are a few other things that are outside of a materialist naturalism worldview:

  - Math is not physical.
  - Information is not physical.
  - Grammar is not physical.
  - Logic is not physical.
  - Reason is not physical.
  - Ideas are not physical.
  - Language is not physical.
  - Science is not physical.
  - Morality is not physical.
  - Truth is not physical.
  - Probability is not physical.
  - Souls are not physical.
  - Spirits are not physical.
  - Concepts are not physical.
  - Codes are not physical.
  - Loyalty is not physical.
  - Love is not physical.
  

  Light and matter itself travel as a mathematical probability wave that collapses into particles upon observation. Where did the information come from ? Why does observation trigger its transformation?

  A materialist naturalism world-view describes very little of our experience. Why would anyone buy into this as some sort of oasis of truth? There must be a larger reality that includes materialism and naturalism as part thereof, but at the same time accounts for the things it doesn't explain.

  I'm curious, Why do you yearn for others to join you in naturalism? What would this do for you if they did?
• 
  5

  How can JW's have a CLUE what the New Covenant is about...

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  ...when their "slave class" doesn't?.

  it-1 p. 524 covenant - the covenant is forever in operation.... it-1 p. 524 covenant - the purpose of the new covenant requires that it continue in operation until all of the “israel of god” are resurrected to immortality in the heavens.. the new covenant is forever in operation, but only until the "anointed" have popped their clogs, been raptured to heaven, and morphed into 144,000 melchizedek king-priests.

  (just like christ!).

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  Sea Breeze

  Now, of course, I know it's because the WBT$ prints mentally retarded refuse.

  https://archive.org/details/allaboutonerusse00cook

  The above link is to a booklet written only 2 years after Russell started printing the WT. Local Pastors exposed the theological illiteracy and obvious deception of Russell's writings the best that they could, which was substantial.

  Russell comes off as an incredibly uneducated self absorbed liar, a narcissist who believed that he found himself prophesied in scripture.

  Local pastors were very concerned and refuted his nonsense for decades. But there was no internet back then and the WT simply out-printed them. The fact is that there was a vast market of uneducated and unchurched adherents that bought into :

  1. No judgement after death

  2. A second chance in paradise after you die.

  3. Complete non-existence if somehow you didn't make the team

  4. Confirmation that you are really smarter than all your educated peers.

  5. You are not fake like everyone else. You are honest-hearted.

  6. You get to take credit for your good works as opposed to Christianity where you do not.

  It was religion for the working man who was free of incumbrances like education, logic and sound doctrine. On my mom's side of the family, the first convert was an immigrant with a 3rd grade education. My dad was a Mississippi farm boy who didn't finish High School and started reading WT literature while stationed in Alaska during near 24 hr. darkness in winter.
  
  
• 
  52

  Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  being born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.

  jehovah created humans.

  jehovah created humans as free moral agents.

  1. 
  2. 
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  Sea Breeze

  What about babies who are still inside their mother? Do they have a right to choose to live?

  Excellent question. Those that claim they are pro-choice really seek to eliminate the free-will of those they would like to cancel.
  
  
• 
  52

  Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  being born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.

  jehovah created humans.

  jehovah created humans as free moral agents.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  There needs to be an agreement on what the terminology means.

  Free Will doesn't mean that we are without influences, temptations, predispositions, context, etc. The fact that we can choose in spite of (as well as because of) such things is only further evidence of free will.

  Furthermore, if we choose not to exercise our free-will, that is an expression of free will as well.... just as making excuses is also a choice and an act of free-will.

  Animals exhibit some volition, but are generally void of moral choices. We are capable of making moral choices whether we choose to admit it, or choose to engage in it or not.
  
  
• 
  52

  Free Will - Does It or Does It Not Exist?

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  being born-in and raised as one of jehovah's witnesses i remember a common theme or phrases used by the watchtower in its theory of why things are the way they are -.

  jehovah created humans.

  jehovah created humans as free moral agents.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  Have you ever truly loved someone? If so, you have proof of free will. You could have chosen not to. But you did. Love is evidence of free will. It cannot be programmed, coerced or manufactured. Love is freedoms' greatest expression.
• 
  162

  A new generation of anointed that will not pass away.

  by Fisherman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  obviously, the older “ anointed ” from 1914 died.

  and because they were anointed, they hopefully went to heaven.

  in the first century though, a newer generation did not replace the old.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Sea Breeze

  All christians going to heaven is nonsensical as I have unquestionably established.

  Fisherman,

  Aren't you even a little bit worried about preaching a gospel that was unknown to the apostles?

  
  

  CHRISTIAN CITIZENSHIP IS IN HEAVEN. The earth will be populated by the surviving nations after the GT.
  
  
• 
  33

  Do you think the Watchtower is right about about eternal punishment of the wicked?

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  atheists believe death is the end of personal existence.

  but for those who believe there is life after death, what do you think is the nature of final punishment?

  in other words do you agree with the atheists and the watchtower society or is there eternal ongoing conscious punishment awaiting the wicked.

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  Sea Breeze

  Job is probably the oldest book in the bible. In it, Job definitely had a hope in an afterlife".

  Almost overnight, Job lost everything — his family, his wealth, his health, even his friends. In the midst of it all, he felt he might be dying, but instead of shrinking back from death, he welcomed it. Why? Not only because he knew it would bring an end to his sufferings, but also because he knew that if he died he would go to be with God. (Job 19:)

  For I know that my Redeemer lives,
  and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
  26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed,
  yet in my flesh I shall see God,

  Other references:

  Isaiah 66:24

  However, there are two passages in the Old Testament that give us a glimpse of the punishment that will come upon the wicked in the end times. The first is Isaiah 66:24: “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

  The 65th and 66th chapters of Isaiah discuss the new heavens and new earth, and how God will bring all the nations to Jerusalem. However, at the end of chapter 66, God says of those who had rebelled against him that their worms will not die, and the fire that burns them will never be quenched. This is consistent with the imagery that is used in the New Testament (click here).

  This passage reflects the condition of those who are not a part of the new heavens and new earth. The implication is that these are the people who will be banished and punished by God and not be given a place among those in heaven.

  Daniel 12:1-3

  The second passage is Daniel 12:1-3. “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.”

  There are some very interesting things about these verses. First, they come after 11:36-45 which is speaking about the Antichrist. Second, the people whose names are found in the book are delivered. This sounds a lot like the Book of Life that is described in the book of Revelation. Third, this is the only place in the Old Testament that speaks about both the righteous and the wicked having a bodily resurrection. And fourth, the righteous will be given eternal life while the wicked will be given eternal shame and contempt.

  This is very similar to what Jesus teaches in Matthew 25:46 where the righteous receive eternal life and the wicked receive eternal punishment. Some like to argue that eternal punishment does not last forever, but if hell is not eternal, then heaven will not be eternal either (click here for more on that topic). Scholar Daniel Block says about Daniel 12:1-3:

  “Life [referring to eternal life] in this context means the recovery of that for which humankind was created in the beginning – free and open fellowship with God and a restoration of all the privileges and responsibilities involved with being the image of God, namely, once more governing the world as God’s representative and deputy. The fate of the wicked is the opposite. They are sentenced to perpetual disgrace…and shame…The former expression refers to the taunts and reviling of all who pass by, the latter to the revulsion and loathing that passers-by feel toward the sight. This interpretation of this rare word is confirmed by Isaiah 66:24 [our first passage above], the only other occurrence of [the Hebrew word for shame]. It describes the disposition one has toward the putrid and malodorous carcass of a dead animal infested with maggots and in an advanced stage of decay.”[5]

  Conclusion

  The Old Testament does not give us a lot of information about hell. However, the passages in Isaiah and Daniel do give us details that are consistent with the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament. Hell is eternal punishment for those who reject the one true God.

  Give the average man a guarantee that there is no hell, and you will tickle him in the right place. Tell him that the heathen are not lost, and it meets his heartiest approval. Show him that the worst of the very wicked need expect only non-existence after death, and he is "with you."

  The average person will defend such an easy-going, "common sense," satisfying religion, and will voluntarily subscribe and further this "comforting" view without even going to a KH.